A Glutton For Punishment: Part III

Still at it. I have to admit, I've had to do a little homework relative to the claims atheists often make to at least better understand their arguments.

So what else have I learned from atheists?

We're all innately good. We're born that way.

When it comes to morality, black can in fact be white

Its pointless to study the Bible. Its obviously full of bad stuff.

I got into an extended discussion with an atheist over morality. The argument was that God, or more to their point, religion (not mutually inclusive, btw) is not required in order to be moral. Moreover, to follow the Hitchens line of reasoning, we're born with innate goodness. Hey, if you're innately good, then it stands to reason you will be moral, irrespective of what you believe or not believe. Children only require friendly reminders from time to time to stay on the moral track and follow the 'golden rule'. How many of you with actual (not virtual) children have had this kind of interchange:

"Now Johnny, you haven't forgotten about the golden rule when it comes to sharing toys with your little brother have you?"

"Ooops, I'm sorry, dad. Just slipped my mind for a second. Here unnamed little brother, you can have my toy. I sure as heck want to treat you as well as I'd like to be treated. Wow, dad! It feels so much better now that I'm totally back in line with my innate goodness... thanks!

"Anytime son. Better get cleaned up for dinner. Mom's making pot-roast!"

Now most likely, my atheist or anti-theist friends won't find a whole lot of humor in that. Please refer to Part II as to why.

What I found particularly interesting in a couple of exchanges were these statements about adultery and morality. For the sake of clarity (heh), I'm 'me' and my atheist counterpart is 'him"

him: "There are really only three possible crimes... Theft (fraud, which is indirect theft), force and the threat of force and that's it."

me: So only those things that are criminal offenses are immoral? Here, at least, adultery is not a crime, but would that be considered immoral, or does that not count? Maybe you could clarify.

him: "Now, is adultery immoral in general. That is a difficult question to answer... "

Now that wasn't all of the answer, obviously. There was a lot of science related our propensity to spread our 'seed' and how that competes with marital fidelity from a philosophical standpoint. In other words, it was a non-answer.

Wait! It gets better...

me: Let me make sure I've got this right. You're telling me that when it comes to morality, cheating on a spouse "...is a difficult question to answer..."?

him: "No, I never said it was OK for a spouse to cheat. "

I'm guessing 'OK' is equivalent to 'moral' at this point. Further down in the SAME post:

him: "Now I certainly was not condoning adultery..."

Further down in the SAME post:

him: "Now in certain circumstances, I would even call adultery a moral act."

At this point, my atheist counterpart was trying to explain that certain circumstances would allow adultery without it being considered an immoral act. I think guys have pretty well been trying to explain that very same thing to their wives for centuries:

" Hey honey...I know you've been SO tired lately, it would have been immoral for me to expect you to satisfy my sexual urges, so I visited a prostitute instead. It was the only right thing to do!"

When I called him on that obvious contradiction, he responds:

him: "Now there is no contradiction in me saying I do not condone adultery but then adding a caveat...Again you are totally misunderstanding me... By me describing why people behave in a certain way, is not the same as condoning it."

I pointed out again that he in fact said that, "... in certain circumstances, I would even call adultery a moral act." Seems to me that calling something moral, under whatever circumstances IS the same as condoning it.


Well, that never really got resolved. I did suggest that he hadn't made a serious study of the Bible. I did get the 'standard list of Bible quotations related to stoning people' he pulled off the internet, sans context. I suppose it would have been more civilized if they'd gotten lethal injections instead?

And this:

him: I have read it, but no I'm not an expert on the Bible... Does one have to be an expert to know that there is some pretty horrible stuff in it, rather a lot actually, of course not... No more than one has to be an expert to know that Mien Kampf is full of horrible stuff too...

Well, I never said the guy HAD to be an expert, just study it. I don't think I'd want to stick my intellectual neck out on the content of "Mein Kampf" unless I'd had an opportunity to read and understand said content, but that's just my opinion, and I might be wrong.